Join us for the season finale of Let’s Talk Teaching as we explore the significance of nurturing and embracing one’s teacher identity, and how it can create a lasting impact in the classroom and beyond.
Join us for the season finale of Let’s Talk Teaching as we explore the significance of nurturing and embracing one’s teacher identity, and how it can create a lasting impact in the classroom and beyond.
From expressing your own personality in the classroom to your approach to behavior management and your interactions with students – teacher identity is an all-encompassing concept that influences the way teachers plan, assess, and collaborate with both colleagues and students.
Our panel of esteemed guests – Gary Prasad, Andrew Greville, and Dr. Michelle Ludecke – share their personal experiences, insights, and practical strategies for nurturing teacher identity and help us understand why it’s so important in a long career of teaching.
Together, we explore:
Special Guests:
Join us for an insightful discussion on nurturing teacher identity and discovering its profound influence on teaching practice and student outcomes.
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If you’re interested in hearing more about the short courses, undergraduate, and postgraduate study options that Monash Education offers, please visit Monash Education's learn more page.
Access this episode's transcript here: https://lets-talk-teaching.simplecast.com/episodes/embracing-your-identity-for-teaching-success/transcript
This podcast is recorded on the land of the Boonirong people of the Eastern Kulin Nation.
We'd like to pay our respect to Elders past and present
and acknowledge that this land was stolen and never ceded.
Welcome to Let's Talk Teaching, the podcast created by teachers, for teachers.
I'm Associate Professor Rebecca Cooper, Director of Initial Teacher Education at Monash University's Faculty of Education
and I'll be your host for this series.
Our aim is to create a conversational series that's informative, engaging and relevant
to your teaching practice.
Joined by academics and teaching alumni from Monash University, we'll be exploring the
challenges, issues and experiences you might be facing in and out of the classroom, drawing
on their personal experiences to provide you with valuable insights into the world of teaching.
Today is our season finale of Let's Talk Teaching.
On this episode we delve into the topic of teacher identity and how understanding yourself
as an individual also influences who you are as a teacher.
But why is it necessary to contemplate teacher identity?
Well, we have three esteemed educators with us today to share their individual experiences
and help answer and explore this concept further.
First, we have Gary Prasad, a retired secondary school teacher who has played a significant
role in shaping the teaching journey of our next guest, Andy Greville. Andy is a secondary
school maths teacher in Miljura, Victoria. Completing our panel is Dr Michelle Ludicke,
respected lecturer from the Faculty of Education at Monash University.
Welcome everybody, it's really great to have you here today to talk about teacher identity.
Shell, I'm going to start with you.
Can you just explain to us what is teacher identity and what does it mean to you?
Well, it's a pretty interesting question to ask, Beck, because identity and teacher identity
are really tricky things to get your head around.
They're shifting and fluid and they respond to different contexts.
But for me, it's like your beliefs in action.
So as a teacher, what you believe comes out in the way that you plan, in the way that
you teach, in the way that you approach assessment, in the way that you work with your colleagues.
So it's about kind of knowing yourself and who you are as an individual, as well as who
you are as a teacher, so that you can choose professional learning that's going to allow
you to progress throughout your career, keep you enriched, keep you engaged with your learners,
So you will find a really good fit in a school or center.
that need to sort of adjust and shift
is part of that teacher identity?
is not gonna be who you are as an experienced teacher.
I'm gonna bring you in now.
What does this all mean?
Hello.
(laughing)
What does this all mean for you?
And, you know, I'm thinking back to when I first started teaching many years ago
to when I finished teaching.
It was one of those things where there's chalk and cheese.
So it's not as if you have an identity and that's it.
And as you grow, as you change professionally and personally,
your identity changes as well.
So then why is it helpful as a teacher to think about teacher identity, Gary?
Because you've got to be a true yourself.
So when you're looking at things, like for example,
Do I apply for this position?
Do I go to this school?
Do I actually have these colleagues, you know, et cetera?
You really have to be true to yourself
because you know what your personality is.
And you really need to basically say,
"Right, am I being comfortable here?"
You're in the long haul.
And you really need to basically be comfortable.
And I was very lucky.
I loved my teaching.
I rolled up and I talked about things I enjoyed talking about.
I got paid for it.
It was amazing.
There was a biscuit going.
And that's lasted all the way down
to perhaps last few years of my teaching when I decided all my colleagues had left.
I was the dana swum and I thought, this is not funny anymore.
This is a job and that was it.
And what about you, Andy?
Yeah.
A couple of things really stood out to me that you just mentioned there, Gary and
Michelle.
I think it is such a fluid kind of thing.
My teacher identity at my career now is very different to what it was when I first
started.
So, and I've built upon that over the years.
And for me, teacher identity is a really fun part of the job.
It's where my personality really gets to shine through with the interaction,
with the kids, other staff.
It's how you approach different situations differently and you bring,
it's something you have in your toolkit to bring out.
So very similar to perhaps your normal personal identity outside of the school,
but perhaps also a little bit different at different times as well.
It's, yeah, it's you joke around with the kids a little bit.
It's your interactions with them in the yard.
It's you might even approach your behavior management using your identity.
So using a little bit of humor or wit here and there.
It's something in your toolkit that you can use.
It's also, it's really one of the fun parts of the job and something I think that as a
teacher you really hold on to quite dear. It's something that you value and yeah,
it's something very important for teachers who really cherish their job, I would say.
And this is to all of you. What do you think you've actually,
is there something you've actively done during your career to develop your identity or to think
about your identity that you can sort of pinpoint and share?
It's a tricky one because I think it's easier to look backwards and reflect on what you
were in order to look forwards.
Like, you know, there's a sort of a couple of ways that you can think about that.
You can go, I used to think fill in the gap.
And now I think fill in the gap.
You know, in my work, I use people's first times to as moments of reflection.
So you go, well, the first time you had to face this situation,
what did you do and think?
And now what would you do and think so that you can recognize your identity?
because it can be a little bit invisible,
and it can also kind of undo stuff.
Like as a beginning teacher,
beginning teachers kind of label themselves as,
I'm just a grad, or I'm only a beginning teacher.
And they're sort of under representing themselves.
Once you can get past that and go,
actually I'm a graduate and I bring these things,
or I'm a beginning teacher and I have all these amazing things
to offer the school like fresh ideas and energy and enthusiasm and you know all that sort
of stuff that that can be really helpful to just sustain you in your job.
I mean I think that's part of it.
Mapping of you know from the start to the finish is very interesting.
I know Andrew you use voice messages to actually just reflect on things and I'm not that high
tech I had a green pen and basically after every day I just write down what worked, what
didn't work, how would I change and so forth?
And otherwise you just make the same mistakes
over and over again.
And I felt that was one of the best things I ever did
was just the green pen look.
And I even presented some PDs about the green pen approach,
you know, which was just reflecting on your teaching.
So you don't make those mistakes again.
How does that sort of help you solidify
and make sense of your identity using your green pen method?
what have I done here that actually time and time again seems to work? And whenever I tried to
fake it, this didn't work, you know, because I've seen it work in other teachers and well, gee,
that's good. And our school really had a lot of observational chances with, you know,
official teachers going in the back of experienced classroom teachers. And I thought, wow, that
worked really well. Try it, doesn't work for you because your personality is very different.
So looking at your green writing, right, saying, well, this worked really well. This didn't work
well, so maybe I should go through this and just evolve them to this is your personality
and this is how you teach. Can I just jump into there? I think like that's such a great
piece of advice for starting teachers. One of the main challenges with this at the moment,
I would say is that as starting teachers, we really need continuity in the classes that we're
taking because when schools chop and change new teachers and change their subjects each year,
each semester. It's very hard to reflect on and improve our teaching. So that is something that
we really need built into schools, I would say, is that perhaps built into the first five years
of your career, you get a double up, a class that's you got to the same class, but you also
teach the same classes year on year because that allows you to then get the green pen out and make
those adjustments year on year. And when you're thinking about the content less, that allows
your time to really spend your time and energy improving your management and spending on other
worthwhile things with your career tool I would say. Absolutely. Yeah. Just done that. I mean one of
the things essential is you report students. So just jump in there and get involved in all things
that interest you. I mean for example I was involved in chess and I'd rate Pura Andra into my
chess clubs and things like that, coaching tennis,
Tai Chi, the whole works.
So students here in a different light,
and you make the connection,
and school camps are brilliant.
You ask students after the lift school,
what do you remember?
Oh, you have some interesting teachers,
but also the camps.
So, and a lot of staff that don't really do that,
you know, because of children mining and things like that.
But also it's really hard now to run camps at schools
because, you know, the way the budgets are these days.
on the school camps that allows us teachers to develop our identity the most as well.
Absolutely. Absolutely.
So how do you find that shifting and changing like within like you've got the same kid and as
you were saying before Andy like you know you're interacting with them in the yard,
Gary you're interacting with them on camp, teaching them in class, hopefully you know you
can have them in different classes over time but you are a slightly different version of yourself
in all those situations, in all those different contexts, how do you practically manage that?
Because that's quite an interesting... How you approach different situations.
Yeah, you've got different hats on, you know, but you're still the same person.
Yes, well, I want to earn some brownie points with Billy out in the yard. So
I'm going to invest some time and to get to know Billy and what he's about and perhaps what
what his interests are outside of school.
It takes five minutes out of your day
to go and have a chat with that student.
But what you're getting with that student in the long run
is when you perhaps have a situation with that student
where you do need him to do something,
trying to teach him some trigonometry or something,
then you've built that rapport already.
That foundation has laid
and you get that five minutes back in.
between who you are with Billy in the playground
who you have to be with Billy when he, you know, does something that you need to take
a bit of a stand on.
Is that attention for you?
Or how do you navigate it?
Maybe it's not for you.
It's challenging to navigate and it's different for each kid too.
You still have your expectations that need to be met.
There's like your core identity, right?
Which is really close to your personal identity.
That's like your sort of ethical stance.
And then there's relationships and rapport and your role and your affiliations and all
those sorts of things that kind of come into it.
So when you've got a huge class, you've got to be a certain kind of teacher, right?
And when there's a fire drill, you've got to be another kind of teacher.
And when there's one kid that you want to talk to, you're not talking to that kid like
you're talking to 30 kids on fire drill.
So how do you talk to Billy?
What kind of person are you when you're talking to Billy?
It's different.
Yeah.
Assertive when you need to be.
But it makes it easier to be assertive when you've spent that time with that student and
got to know them.
I think it's a two-hour process too because again, when you get to kids get to see you
in a different environment to the classroom, they see what you really like.
And one on one, that's what I'm usually like, whatever the situation.
However, in the classroom, I switch onto the business mode of, excuse me, listening in
please, everybody listening in, they kind of stuff, right?
And so it's a two-way process.
Because the kids have now got to know you through camps, chests, tennis, whatever it
is, right?
Et cetera.
What about that, don't smile till Easter, all that rubbish?
I said some tennis.
But that's identity work, right?
That's trying to find out who you are and let the students know who you are and how much
you're prepared to give away. You know, you can give them a bit of your personal information
and stuff so that they feel like they're getting to know you as a human as well as a teacher.
But you're not robot teach. You've got to pick your moments for when you share that as well.
Sometimes it's tricky when to know an appropriate moment to share a bit more of yourself with the
students. And we're all very pressed for time too. You've got your teaching them content.
you want to get your lessons started, but sometimes there's just moments where you just
kind of pick it up that you need to give them a breather for a second. And knowing when that moment
is is tricky. And you don't always get that right either. Sometimes you might start your lesson in
a bit more of a relaxed manner and it won't go so well. Other times, perhaps after an assembly or
something that's disrupted the kids, you give them a little bit more of a breathing space,
you share a moment with them a little bit more. That can be valuable I think sometimes too.
It's one of the things I found throughout the Thickenkrieg textbook is basically mind maps.
So my very first lesson with all my classes, regardless whether she's seven or 12, was basically
that I do my own mind map. So the kids are good to know me, and they also get to see the ICT
application of mind maps. I'm really teaching them something useful and also becomes a revision
tool of our trick. So I would say this is me, this is my family, this is my interests and so
forth, so the gangs know me and then they would do the same thing and I'd take all the hard copies
up and suddenly I realised that you know half the class are really into NEPA or whatever it is,
you know, or they're all support Carlton or something like that. She's terrible, but yeah.
And I still remember your Hawthorne lunchbox that got brought to after school math sessions
with chocolates in them, Gary. Absolutely. Andy, I just want to go back to something Gary
mentioned before, which was your use of voice memos as a reflection strategy. Can you talk
a little bit about that and particularly into relation of the sort of the evolution of your
identity over the last few years? I think you're trying to find your feet, especially in the first
six months of your career. And I think sometimes talking it out in the car on the way home was
helpful and what I was thinking and feeling at the time.
It's probably beneficial.
And just, just reflecting on those little moments, how could I do this differently?
What have I done well too?
Cause I think sometimes we forget what we're doing well.
You're not going to get every interaction right.
You're not going to do everything perfectly all the time.
So, yeah.
Particularly as you're learning too, as you, as you're coming in and as you try,
you know, you're talking before about trying things and sort of seeing how they go.
But I like hearing from both of you that whilst you're trying things,
you've got your green pen method, you've got your voice memos,
and which links with Shell's idea of going back and reflecting on what happened
to be able to say, well, I did this and I really did think it would work,
but I've done it now and it needs to look different or it didn't work for me
because. And so then I start to think about, well,
what's that evolution of your identity like?
What does it feel like as you're going through it?
I think it's rewarding when you have a moment where you do something and you're like,
"I wouldn't have done that as well as I just did six months or 12 months ago as well."
For me, seeing that improvement over time is rewarding and valuable.
And it's part of the job too that sort of is addictive in a little way, I think.
Just that improvement. I don't know, maybe I'm crazy.
But I like always having something to improve on or I like striving to do
better and teaching will always doesn't matter. Well, maybe apart from you two,
you're finished up now Gary, but when you get to that final stage of your career,
you probably feel pretty content and pretty satisfied with what you're doing.
But certainly in the first 10 years, 15 years back, there's probably always room for improvement
here and there. So part of this reflection is also getting yourself out of the comfort zone.
One of the things I did really early on was classroom discipline is always an issue for
any young teacher and I found you know the opportunity came up to actually be a little
coordinated in my probably 34th teaching year and I thought geez do I want to do this and
I was really fortunate in school that actually allowed you to do that and have a go these
challenging things and I thought that was the best thing I'd ever done and all of a sudden
seeing other teachers having other issues and how they solve them, how they didn't solve
them. And to me, that, you know, suddenly my problems were very small potatoes. And also,
you get the whole school perspective. And that really solved a kid you know, after in year five,
I was a completely new teacher, because I got to the stage where I'm saying, you know, this is not
really that bad compared to what I've already seen with other teachers. And some of the strategies
are actually coping with this. And I think, Gary, you've just picked up picked up on something there
that's really interesting is that that influence of the school community on your developing teacher
identity but also on of from individual teachers whether they're at your school or whether they're
people you see at payday or whether they're just people you know so I just again to all of you
who's been or what's been that influence on your identity? Like interactions and affiliations are
such an important part of the way that you can grow yourself.
Like it's great to do the individual reflective stuff that I love the idea of the voice memos and
you know talking yourself through stuff. But there would have been other teachers that you were
looking at going, "Oh wow, how do they do that?" or "I want to be like that" or "I don't want to be like
that or you know that sort of stuff. Yeah I couldn't agree with my mum a show and Gary I still
remember something you told me first ever week of the job. Can you remember? No, I've got a lot of
things like that. You said to me that as teachers where a conglomerate of the other teachers and
people we're saying do it. Did I really use that word? Sounds pretty big. No it's one of those things
where the maths faculty, it's probably, I'd say the best faculty that I worked in at school,
and it was one of those things where we'd go into the classrooms, we'd actually, you know,
if somebody didn't have a maths test for a practice test, here's one here, we'd share resources,
and we'd also debrief. No one would go home at the end of the day, we'd just be debrief all the
time, and I think it's pretty cool, a lot of teaching areas where you know, simply reflect,
hey handling little Johnny, you know, what's happening with him and all that stuff, but also
It's the issue about, I guess, something that you can talk through because you feel so,
so personally connected to other people.
Those teachers are probably my lifelong friends now.
It's amazing.
And I still keep in touch with them.
In fact, I'm going out with them tomorrow.
You know, that kind of stuff.
So it's one of those things where, you know, what do you think about this?
Do you think this is going to work and things like that?
And I think that's what I was talking to you about, is that, you know, you really have
all these other resources.
But also, I think I had mentors.
I had a very great friend who was an assistant principal as well.
And also my involvement with the staff where I had all these educators and other
schools, you know, and getting together with them and looking at a statewide
perspective of how educational trends are going.
And like teacher identity is not just your personal professional identity.
It's collective as well.
So the beauty, but also the heavy aspect of that is that whatever you do as an
individual is reflected on the maths faculty, the school, the profession.
Like, I mean, we only need to open the newspaper or your social media or look
at the news or whatever and see a teacher who's stuffed up in a big way.
And it's representative of all teachers.
So everything we do as individuals contributes to this collective teacher identity.
And when you become a teacher, you're stepping into and committing to that profession and that
identity. And so you're not only looking around you going, I want to be like that teacher or I
don't want to be like that teacher, but there's a greater sense of teaching as a profession and
the sort of social impact that we can have as a collective group on learners.
And that's kind of why we do it, you know, but that can be pretty heavy for a beginning teacher
to kind of get their head around, right? It was very heavy, Andy. In what way? How did you feel?
That there's pride of place in the profession. And I think as teachers,
now more than ever, we need to stay true to our values and really demonstrate that as well.
And getting back to identity too, the culture of the school is so heavily intertwined with
how we come across and how we go about things as the school collective is.
These are our values. This is how we do things here.
The school collective of teachers or the school collective of the community?
Yeah, okay. In what way?
Processes and practices and I think the school's culture influences perhaps
how we tend to do things. I noticed a really big shift when I went from, like I've worked in
some great government schools but they were very challenging and then I went to a Catholic girl
school. So the kids themselves bring quite a bit to the table. And so the context meant that I had
to shift as well. So where in the past if a student wasn't wearing full school uniform,
I would let that slide, let the whole school knew to let that slide, right? But at the
Catholic Girls' School, if your sock, your ankle sock was slightly rolled under your shoe,
that was a detention. And I had to get used to being that kind of teacher, you know, because
I had to contribute to the values of the new school context. And that's where that shifting
and changing of your identity and the negotiation that you have to go through yourself becomes
really interesting. Like at what point will you say no and therefore this school is not
a good fit?
And you've got that conflict between the school's values and your own values and that
was probably, yeah, you probably didn't like your teacher identity as much because of it
because you had to be more of a stricter, firmer.
So you're now faking it, aren't you?
It's not really you.
It creates a cognitive dissonance in you.
So it's a problem.
like I know out your school day,
there's some bigger issues at play.
And like I know myself, like my focus in my career
is the teaching and learning
and how I'm going about that
and how I'm helping the kids understand
that's my main priority.
So it upsets me to be wasting as much time
I am on things like a uniform but that's my personal beliefs there of course.
But beginning teachers you really have to pick your battles because really you can't
tackle everything so you work out, get your teaching and learning under control and then
you can start talking about okay your socks are different colours whatever it is you know.
But it's about knowing yourself and being able to negotiate okay who can I be in this moment?
Can I actually step up and go all right you know I'm going to give you a detention for
what I personally believe is such a minor infraction, but as a professional in doing so,
I'm making a commitment. I'm making a commitment to my colleagues that, yep, I'm not going to
undermine you because we're all on the same page. I'm making a commitment to the school community
saying, yep, this is the community we're trying to create and therefore I'm going to commit to that
by doing this thing that I personally think is like a big eye roll moment.
But in the grander scheme of things, it's going to allow greater emphasis on teaching and learning.
Like I'm certainly not bagging those approaches. They're all different and different schools will
have different kind of approaches. But it's about how you negotiate with yourself who you can be
and become. And so if you can be that teacher in that moment to give you know some sort of you
know code of conduct or whatever, then when you become a year level coordinator, you can see the
shift in who you are at that different level where you've got a bigger perspective and you go okay
At this level, we're trying to create X, Y and Z for these learners.
And all those teachers that I've got working in that year level
are going to commit to being the kind of teachers that we need
in order to meet these outcomes.
It's hard to do the behavior management if you don't believe in what you're enforcing.
Exactly.
It just becomes wishy-washy.
Yeah.
same time as you also mentioned that you want to support your colleagues and work with your
colleagues too. And it needs to be a united front. So schools that aren't clear on the
schools identity themselves can become quite what's the word I'm looking for, fractured.
Is that too rich a word?
Yeah, that's exactly the word. I mentioned the fact that you need to push yourself out
of the comfort zone to actually just develop. There's also that intellectual curiosity.
I mean, you know, after a while, say, teaching a few years,
you start thinking, what else is there out there?
So you then start to explore other things.
The classic for me was,
I didn't realize I had a very late dormant journey
in gardening and things like that.
So I got into, you know,
getting back and doing a deployment of horticulture
and actually doing a vet horticulture course at schools.
So this is a classic example of your personal identity.
Exactly.
Coming out in your professional identity
and not having to suppress that,
but also knowing who you are, what you can contribute.
And therefore when you're applying for a job
in the first place, being clear on,
well, this is the teacher I think I am,
am I gonna fit into this context?
Like, is it too much negotiation
in terms of my beliefs in action
to work in this context?
And if it is, don't go there, you know?
And that's where, you know,
I mean, you can test it out on things like placement
and go, oh, okay, I think I might be this kind of teacher.
But then as you move through your career,
you can find the way that you can shift
and change to different contexts.
And in surprising ways sometimes,
and that can also help you grow.
Like, and so applying for leadership positions,
changing schools, changing the school
with your gardening programs
or bringing something in that you're really interested in
and aligning those to sustain you
because your identity as an individual
is gonna sustain you throughout your career.
And we know we've got teacher shortage,
there's crisis in teachers leaving
at early points in their careers.
And if we can help people to understand who they are
and who they wanna become,
then that's gonna help set up a more sustained
and satisfactory career.
as you're testing different things,
you sort of there's, I'd be hopeful
that you'd have colleagues around you
who would be trying to do the same thing.
And I know Gary, you said you worked in the department
where that was certainly the case.
And it goes back to what you were saying before
with Gary about that conglomerate of people.
You know, you've had your 36 years of teaching, Gary.
I'm assuming that conglomerate of people continues to grow.
Oh, it does, yes. - It does.
And also, as you evolve and doing different jobs,
being a science coordinator or a curriculum coordinator to then suddenly became a learning
pathway school so you're having gifted classes and things like that. So it really is, you know,
bang, bang, bang. You also then become part of different committees, different conferences you
go to, different conferences you present at, things like that. So all of a sudden you've got a
professional, you know, I didn't, I never really wanted to go into the principal class things because
that would take me away from the classroom. And I'm not sure whether you were aware, Andrew,
I really enjoyed the classroom. I really enjoyed it. I did not want to get leave it.
So a lot of my colleagues in the leadership group in our school,
it all being part-time APs at that school, that was one of the roles we're actually evolving.
Except for me, I just did not see me as an AP.
And that's your identity at work, right?
As you mentioned earlier too, you have to be relaxed and comfortable.
And that come across me observing you. Comfortable, self-assured as well.
I think the teachers with the best or well-rounded identities are those that are self-assured and
confident. And isn't it interesting how you can think you're one thing, but when you talk to your
students they go, "Oh, you're this. You're so whatever." You go, "Really?" And that actually
is good information for you. Or when a colleague comes up and goes, "Hey, you'd be really good
as a year level coordinator, you should apply for that.
Exactly what happens to everyone.
It's happened to Michelle.
I know.
But then you go, oh, okay.
I hadn't actually thought about that.
And that's just another layer in your journey
to constantly becoming.
So speaking about that journey
and that constantly becoming Michelle,
we're becoming close to the end of our time today.
So I just wanted to hear from each of you.
What would you say to graduate teachers, early career teachers out there who want
to start exploring these ideas of identity?
What would you say to them?
What's important?
Where can they start?
What could they do?
Andy?
It's something you've really got to actively work at and get out and watch
some good teachers teach and you'll discover what it's about and why it's so valuable.
Shell, know yourself in order to know your learners.
They're why we do it. So, yeah, if you can know who you are, then you can better get
to know who they are and you can become a better teacher.
Gary.
Gary, become a certain. That way you'll develop your identity. Simple as that.
Thank you all so very, very much for coming and chatting with us today. It's been absolutely
fantastic.
Thank you. Thank you.
And that's a wrap on the final episode for this season of Let's Talk Teaching.
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world of teaching.
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