Behaviour management in the classroom is one of teaching’s toughest challenges - but what if we approached it like any other part of learning? This episode flips the script - exploring how structure, consistency and intentional teaching can transform behaviour support for both students and educators.
Rather than reacting to misbehaviour, what if we approached it with the same planning and intention we bring to teaching literacy and numeracy in the classroom?
In this episode, behaviour expert Dr Russ Fox and school leader Karina Stocker explain why behaviour should be treated as a skill - explicitly taught, consistently reinforced, and supported through clear expectations and structured routines. From embedding multi-tiered support systems (MTSS) to practical coaching and playbooks, they share how teachers and schools can build consistency, strengthen culture and support every learner.
Whether you’re working within a whole-school framework or applying these principles in your own classroom, this episode offers grounded, practical strategies to help reduce the guesswork and make behaviour support sustainable.
In this episode, you’ll learn:
Topics we explore:
(00:00) Introduction to Positive Behaviour Support
(02:16) Effective Approach to Behaviour Support
(02:55) Building Whole-School Systems and Consistency
(05:28) Support for Teacher Success
(07:12) Understanding Tiered Support Systems
(09:54) Building Relationships Through Behaviour Teaching
(11:05) Behaviour Is a Curriculum That Can Be Taught
(14:19) Setting Up Environments for Learner Success
(18:25) Helpful Environmental Starting Points
(20:57) Managing Teacher Workload and Practice
(24:37) Building Systems That Support Teachers
(30:43) Instructional and Daily Routines for Success
(32:46) Using Extrinsic Supports to Build Intrinsic Motivation
(33:32) Final Reflections on Teaching Behaviour
Resources:
Special Guests:
Dr Russ Fox
Lecturer, School of Educational Psychology & Counselling
Faculty of Education, Monash University
Connect with Russ on LinkedIn
Karina Stocker
Multi-Tiered Systems of Support Leader,
Docklands Primary School, Melbourne
Educational Consultant, Teacher and PhD Candidate
Connect with Karina on LinkedIn and X
If you’re enjoying Let’s Talk Teaching, don’t forget to subscribe, rate and review! You can follow us on Instagram, X and Facebook, and share your thoughts on the show by using the hashtag #letstalkteachingpodcast.
If you’re interested in hearing more about the short courses, undergraduate and postgraduate study options that Monash Education offers, please visit our website.
We are grateful for the support of Monash University’s Faculty of Education in producing this podcast.
[00:00:00] Rebecca Cooper: This podcast is recorded on the land of the Bunurong people of the Eastern Koan Nation. We'd like to pay our respect to elders past and present, and acknowledge that this land was stolen and never seeded. Welcome to Let's Talk Teaching the podcast created by Teachers for Teachers. How is
[00:00:20] Karina Stocker: the environment shaping that behavior?
[00:00:21] Have I got kids at tables where that's creating off task behavior? Maybe I need to have my tables in rows. Maybe I need to place students in certain seating positions that supports their behavior. Maybe I need to space out where the resources are. So all of these things will prompt your students to engage in certain behaviors.
[00:00:44] Dr Russ Fox: We're not doing any of this for compliance and control. This is about supporting learners to engage in their learning with their peers. So they can participate and belong as part of school. And all of these practices are really skill building things. And that build the routines and [00:01:00] habits of a classroom that enable people to thrive.
[00:01:04] Rebecca Cooper: Ask any teacher about the biggest challenge in their job, and managing student behavior will top the list. But what if we shifted the focus from discipline to proactive support? How can schools create consistency and structure that helps students succeed while also supporting teachers at the same time?
[00:01:23] So
[00:01:24] Karina Stocker: we see the teaching of academics and behavior in the same way. And so for teachers, that's really important because it means that they're using a skillset that they're comfortable with and they know. And we are not having competing priorities.
[00:01:39] Rebecca Cooper: I'm Associate Professor Rebecca Cooper, assistant Dean of Initial Teacher Education at Monash University's Faculty of Education.
[00:01:47] Each episode we engage with education experts and alumni to explore real challenges and innovations in the classroom, providing valuable insights that can be applied to your own teaching practice. [00:02:00] Joining me today is Dr. Russ Fox, who specializes in behavior and learning support, and Corina Stocker, a school leader and consultant who has successfully implemented whole school behavior frameworks.
[00:02:14] Russ, I wanna start with you. Yep. What does an effective approach to behavior look like? And what are some of the biggest misconceptions that teachers have?
[00:02:25] Dr Russ Fox: An effective approach to behavior Support within a school really should be educative. It should be focused on teaching behavior. Now we wanna set really high expectations about what behavior can and should look like, and we wanna uphold those really consistently across the school.
[00:02:41] But we should be focusing on teaching our students, like we teach literacy and numeracy. We can teach behavior within our school and we can support our learners. To achieve those expectations regardless of their starting point. Now, it can be a bit of work, but it, it is about the system. So a whole school [00:03:00] system that supports teachers to do their work is what's really required.
[00:03:05] And so there are a couple of key components to that system, and I think really good professional learning for staff in the first instance. Lots of ongoing support to help them in their classrooms, to, um, manage the, the, the really sort of universal practices. And then we would like to see those universal practices happening really consistently across the school.
[00:03:26] So as students move from, um, maybe the art room or back into the classroom in a primary school or move from, um, subject space to subject space in a secondary school, that the approach is really consistent and every teacher can have their own personality and approach within that. They're really using common language, they're using common practices, and we're building really clear routines and expectations across the whole school environment.
[00:03:52] Rebecca Cooper: Great. So what are, what might be some of the biggest misconceptions that teachers have about these sorts of things?
[00:03:59] Dr Russ Fox: Yeah, so [00:04:00] when we think about whole school frameworks in particular, so things like positive behavior interventions and supports, or. School-wide positive behavior support or positive behavior for for learning.
[00:04:09] These are different names for the same framework. It's really easy for us to think that it's just a set of tricks or, or tools, and there are those practices that we use, but it's really about the system that sits around that to support the teachers to do their work. And I think one of the most common misconceptions is that it all falls on the teacher.
[00:04:29] And that it is just at tier one or at the universal tier. These are the things that we do, and we just roll them out, and that's going to work for most of the, the learners. But really the framework should help us identify what are the practices that are gonna make the biggest difference for our learners.
[00:04:45] And there are a common set of practices, which fortunately and Corina might talk about this in a bit. The common set of practices that help us with behavior support also help us with our instruction. And, and, and there are a clear set of. Common things that have been shown across a pretty large [00:05:00] body of research really to work really well across behavior and academics.
[00:05:03] And so the misunderstanding is that it is just like a set of practices and that it's just the job of the teacher when really it's the systems around that support the teacher to make really good decisions and the support through professional learning or coaching or leadership. That really help identify when teachers need support and how they can be given the greatest sort of resourcing or, or what's required to do the work in the classroom.
[00:05:28] Rebecca Cooper: All right, and so, Corina, at this point I might bring you in. You've worked with these sorts of things in your school. What does it look like in, in situ? What does it look like in a school?
[00:05:37] Karina Stocker: Just building on from what Russ said, it's about, I think number one, setting up the systems and setting up the systems is about, um, ensuring that the teachers are, are able to be successful in the classroom.
[00:05:49] At the school that I work at, we have a kind of saying that education is everyone's business and it's not just a teacher in the classroom. So at any point, [00:06:00] if a teacher needs support that they will get that support and there's. No question about their ability to handle the situation. It's all an understanding that the teacher cares about the safety and the calm, orderly, um, environment that they want for their classroom.
[00:06:15] And so I think systems are number one, and I think a lot of work needs to go into developing consistency of language, consistency of practice, providing what we would call the antecedents to, um, implementation behavior. So setting up those, the teachers for success using. We have behavior support playbooks.
[00:06:35] Um, we provide lots of professional learning and coaching in tier one practices for behavior support. And also having those systems where when students are needing tier two or tier three support, that the teachers are involved in that, um, as well as our ES support. Education support staff as part of the process, and they receive coaching in how to support that student in the classroom.
[00:06:59] [00:07:00] And I think that having all of those things in place means that the teachers can feel really confident about walking into their classrooms and teaching. I. All the students that they have in their classroom. So
[00:07:11] Rebecca Cooper: you've
[00:07:12] Karina Stocker: both referred
[00:07:12] Rebecca Cooper: to tiers, tier one, tier two, tier three? Yeah. What do you
[00:07:15] Karina Stocker: mean by the tiers?
[00:07:16] Yeah, so tier one is your general classroom environment. So when we are implementing, uh, evidence-based behavior support and instructional practices with rigor, we know that. About 80% of students will be successful in that environment. Um, and when some students aren't successful in that environment with tier one alone, then we will provide more intensive supports at tier two.
[00:07:42] And, um, some students may need even more intensive in individualized supports at tier three. So from a behavior support or wellbeing perspective, that would be a real wraparound approach. Um, at my school, we call them round tables, where we have a multidisciplinary team that. Problem solves and works on, looks at data [00:08:00] and makes decisions about behavior support planning with the teacher and anyone involved with the student.
[00:08:05] Sometimes the students involved, sometimes their parents or carers. So that tier three is really individualized supports to help those students be successful at school and in the classroom.
[00:08:15] Rebecca Cooper: So then let me take you go back to tier one for me. Sure. What are some examples of sort of, uh. Practices or things that actually might happen in a classroom at tier one?
[00:08:24] Yeah.
[00:08:24] Dr Russ Fox: Yeah. So I, one of the most common things we hear about and, and, and we hear these, uh, practices suggested broadly within sort of education spheres. You, we might hear about teaching routines, teaching expectations, not just putting our expectations. Up on the wall or establishing them in sort of the early part of the year or of a semester block in high school, but actually teaching those sort of consistently and not taking out whole lessons a week, although that might happen, but more so just using.
[00:08:55] Small moments, incidental teaching, like a, a little moment in a game [00:09:00] or as we're introducing something just to pause and remember in our class, we, and then introduce that expectation. And sometimes we see classes or schools use sort of a, a focus on a value or an expectation within a, a week or a fortnight.
[00:09:13] Um, and I think these are fairly common practices across schools, but it's, it's been really consistent in the teaching and then modeling. So the teachers are modeling those expectations. I. And they might call it out as they're modeling it. Now, I'm, I'm trying to show you respectful listening here. What does respectful listening look like?
[00:09:30] And get students to then respond to the prompt or the teaching and lots of opportunities to practice real. Opportunities to practice. Okay. And then when we see it not working, we give feedback and it might be corrective feedback. One of the things I hear a lot is to build relationships. Teachers need to build relationships and That's right.
[00:09:48] Absolutely. Teaching is a relational game. It's the connection we have with our students that's so important. But I do think that sometimes teachers might get the message that they have to wait until they have a relationship before they [00:10:00] start using evidence-based practices. And I think it's really important that we share the message really that.
[00:10:06] These ways of engaging and teaching expectations and even correcting if a student is, you know, talking over the top of other students. That's how we build and maintain relationships. Now we have to do that in a way that's respectful ourselves and model the values. We don't wait until we have a relationship to use some of these practices.
[00:10:23] We actually build our relationships through using these practices. And so other opportunities or other practices, sorry, are like opportunities to respond. Giving students lots of opportunities to actively engage in their learning. Um, so they're not just passively sitting and. Receiving teacher wisdom, which is not a bad thing, but we do want them to be able to actively engage and participate.
[00:10:45] 'cause we know the more engaged they are, the less likely they're to engage in sort of disruptive and other behavior in the classroom.
[00:10:51] Karina Stocker: So at our school where I work at Dolan's Primary School, we have, as I said, mentioned, um, earlier, we have a behavior support playbook. Now, as part of that, it's about [00:11:00] describing the shared language and practices that we use at our school at tier one.
[00:11:04] And we have a real focus on the idea that. Behavior is a curriculum, and that can be taught exactly the way that academics is taught because it's all learning behavioral skills, academic learning is all learning. And so a lot of the practices that we have described in that book are things like opportunities to respond, and that's opportunities to respond for academic tasks.
[00:11:24] So the amount of practice opportunities students get to learn. Reading or math skills and having high rates of opportunities to respond to behavioral skills as well as part of those opportunities to respond. It's really important that students frequently receive positive feedback or corrective feedback on those skills.
[00:11:41] So we call it closing the loop. Um, an example might be the bell rings and a child runs to their bag in class, and the the classroom expectation is that we walk in class. So rather than say, Hey, Johnny Walk. We'll say, Johnny, remember we walk in class, come back and try that again. So we are giving him another opportunity to [00:12:00] respond in that skill and then as they walk into their bag, we then will provide affirmative feedback.
[00:12:05] Great for walking. Let's see that in the future. Great work, Johnny. Just as we would if there was an academic error. There's an academic error. Two plus two is six. We would say two plus two is four. Try that again. Yep. We give the child another opportunity to respond and we would provide affirmative feedback to strengthen that skill.
[00:12:25] So we see the teaching of academics and behavior in the same way. And so for teachers that's really important because it means that they're using a skillset that they're comfortable with and they know. And we are not having competing priorities. So when we are doing professional learning on opportunities to respond, we talk about both academics and behavior.
[00:12:46] So this is just an example of one of the tier one practices that we would put in to support majority of students in the classroom to be successful.
[00:12:53] Rebecca Cooper: Fantastic. So take me to tier two. What does that look like at
[00:12:57] Karina Stocker: T two? Is an intensified [00:13:00] version of tier one. So just like when we are teaching reading skills and when students aren't successful at tier one with reading, for example, learning phonics or learning the ability to decode, we don't then teach them something else.
[00:13:15] Those students need a greater practice amount to be able to be successful to successfully read. It's the same with tier two with behavior support. We don't need to give those students something else. We need to give them more practice in the skill that they're struggling with, more practice, more feedback.
[00:13:34] So it might mean tier two students are provided with greater opportunities to practice social skills or greater opportunities to practice regulation through small group. It might mean that we break a skill down for them. So it might be that they're struggling with winning and losing. We might break that skill down.
[00:13:53] We might have an extra staff member out in the yard or an ES staff to be able to teach them in the moment [00:14:00] and be able to provide that real time feedback to strengthen those skills. I. While they're using them, just like we would in a classroom, if a child is struggling, the teacher will provide more opportunities or break that skill down and more feedback for them to be able to engage in the academic tasks.
[00:14:16] The same thing happens with behavioral skills. I think it's
[00:14:19] Dr Russ Fox: a really good opportunity now to point out too the at tier one and at tier two, we are trying to set our environment up for learner success. Okay? So we're looking to, you know, minimize unnecessary distractions if we've got. All the materials out everywhere and it's really kind of chaotic and we've got, you know, pinch points in the class where people kind of bump past or in the bag areas and locker, locker bays.
[00:14:41] If there are challenges there, then we might organize those environments and arrange those for success. You know, make more space if it's possible. Change the noise level if that's possible. You know, there are lots of. Students in open plan learning environments where that's really hard for teachers and for students.
[00:14:57] And so, you know, finding ways to minimize the [00:15:00] impact of noise, you know, sound deadening where possible. And again, these are budget things as well, and teachers don't have the control over, you know, installing a, a. Wall. But there are are certain things that we can do to set the environment up for success.
[00:15:13] And at tier two we might learn more about what a learner needs. We might get to know if there are certain sensory needs or other things, uh, that we just didn't pick up before that might be contributing. And so we might arrange the environment for greater success as we work to teach those skills as well.
[00:15:28] And so, like Corina was saying, we're really doing the same. Like kinds of practices at, um, at tier two, as we do at tier one, we're just much more individualized and we're giving a greater intensity and individualized version of that. And then at tier three, yeah, I'm jumping ahead a little here. Go for it.
[00:15:46] At tier three, we're actually starting to undertake some assessments to really identify what specific things we might need to change in the environment if there's actually some things that we haven't identified and, and as we got to know the learner even more. We've [00:16:00] modified what we can always trying to understand the relationship between the environment and the student's behavior a little better, but we don't, we haven't quite hit, um, the nail on the head.
[00:16:09] Then we'll do a more specific targeted assessment. So that would be, I. Something like a functional behavior assessment.
[00:16:14] Karina Stocker: Okay. And I think it's really important right now to explain that the tiers are in addition. So, okay, if we are wanting to provide tier two and tier three support and tier one isn't as effective as it should be, then tier two and tier three supports aren't going to be as effective or successful for that student.
[00:16:34] So I'll give you an example. So we know from the research that high rates of opportunities to respond. Increases academic outcomes, but also behavioral outcomes, higher on task behaviors. And the recommended number of opportunities to respond per minute of instruction is actually three to five opportunities to respond.
[00:16:52] So that's three to five times that a, a learner is engaging in some kind of response, whether that be a whiteboard [00:17:00] response, a nonverbal response to the teacher's instruction. Now if that's not in place, and we know for students that are needing that at an intensive level, so they might need something like six opportunities to respond a minute to be engaged in the lesson, and we're not getting three to five at a T one level.
[00:17:19] That's gonna be really difficult to do. Yeah. So I think it's really important to stop and think about tier one instruction because it is actually the foundation of all behavior support. Another example might be, um, the research supports a praise to correction ratio of about. Four or five praise statements, whether that be academic or behavioral skills to one correction.
[00:17:41] Again, that's a tier one practice that we know supports about 80% of students to be engaged and successful in the classroom, both academically and behaviorally. Now if we have a student that has any emotional or behavioral challenges, the research actually says that those students need up to eight or [00:18:00] nine praise to correction statements to be successful in a, in a learning environment.
[00:18:05] So if we haven't got the four to one ratio type in our tier one instruction, then it's going to be really difficult to intensify that support for that student. And increase those praised correction ratios. So it's just an example of how it adds on and it's not in isolation, the support that we're providing for those students that are needing a little bit more support.
[00:18:25] Rebecca Cooper: Two questions. I'm gonna ask them both now, but don't answer them both together, but it's just while I remember you were talking before about the environment, and I'm really interested if there are some sort of specific basic sort of environmental starting points that are really helpful to make. Those sort of that tier one space successful?
[00:18:43] Yes. And my second question is around that seems like a lot for teachers to be keeping track of. How do they do it? So start with the environment first and then come back to teachers. For me, I like
[00:18:55] Karina Stocker: to do the analogy of when we are driving and when we drive on the [00:19:00] roads, we look at all the environmental signs around us that are actually shaping our behavior for driving safely.
[00:19:05] So we have the white lines, and when we go over the white lines, there's a sound that gets us back onto the road. Now, all of those things have been put into the environment so that we respond in an appropriate and safe way. Now, probably not a hundred percent of people will respond in an inappropriate, safe way.
[00:19:23] There's going to be a percentage of people that need more intensive support. Now I like to tell teachers and support teachers to think about their classroom as an environment that has cues and signs around to promote certain behaviors in your classroom. So I say become an analyst in your classroom.
[00:19:43] Look at the way that students are responding and think about the environment in how is the environment shaping that behavior. Yeah.
[00:19:51] Rebecca Cooper: Okay.
[00:19:51] Karina Stocker: Have I got kids? At tables where that's creating off-task behavior. Maybe I need to have my tables in rows. Maybe [00:20:00] I need to place students in certain seating positions that supports their behavior.
[00:20:04] Maybe I, if you're teaching in primary school, need to have dots on the floor so students have that cue to know where to sit. Maybe I need to have arrows. Maybe I need to get rid of the clutter. Maybe I need to space out where the resources are. So all of these things will prompt your students to engage in certain behaviors.
[00:20:25] So looking at the physical environment is one thing, and when we talk about environment, everyone always thinks about the physical environment, but we can also talk about our instructional environment. How clear are our cues for instruction? So how clear is it that we are wanting students to raise their hands or respond to a cold call?
[00:20:45] Or have we taught that routine to fluency? How do we want our students to use their whiteboards when they're providing whiteboard responses? How do we want them to tune it and show it? And are we providing feedback on that? So. Think about the cues [00:21:00] both instructionally and physically in your environment and how you can make them super sharp so that students know exactly how to respond.
[00:21:08] But what about the teachers keeping track of all of this?
[00:21:11] Dr Russ Fox: Yeah, I think this is such an important point. 'cause it's like, okay mate, you're sitting here, got a microphone in front of you. You are not in a classroom counting opportunities to respond like. Hang on a second. That's, that's only for this minute.
[00:21:24] There's a lot going on and, and, and teachers as they're doing the work, I think it's really unreasonable to be like trying to look at the trees in the forest and count the trees and it's a lot. And so I think it's about. Looking at where we are doing things really well. Like it's about building on strengths.
[00:21:42] I used to go into classrooms, uh, I mean, I'm a teacher. I, I was in classrooms and working in sort of withdrawal specialist settings for students who were having a little bit more of a harder time of, of things. And then I spent a good chunk of my, my time working in schools, working with teachers. And if we're [00:22:00] asking teachers to work with someone who might have a history of trauma or might have some sort of higher support needs around behavior.
[00:22:07] And we sort of saying, oh, you need to increase your rates of behavior specific praise. And I'm counting the number of times they've gone and spoken to little Rusty and given him behavior specific praise that can feel condescending for a teacher and it doesn't actually reflect their practice. And so I was thinking about where we're actually using these skills really well in the class.
[00:22:28] And more often than not, teachers are, are doing this kind of work. At close to optimal rates with some students. And so it's actually about taking a practice that's working really well with Karina and then shifting it across to little Rusty. And so I, I think setting goals, which is a class that's not too hard when I'm not like lips at the water line, really just paddling as hard as I can to keep oxygen.
[00:22:55] Where am I able to find some success and practice under good conditions? [00:23:00] Think about the students that I'm working with. That I'm having great success with and building on where things are going really well, and then extending that practice or generalizing that practice to some of the other spaces in my timetable or my week, which are a bit more stressful.
[00:23:15] I. And I think practicing in better conditions can really help us. Like when I was working with some of the learners that were, uh, a little bit more complicated, I would actually write out, I was the nerd that wrote out the script because sometimes I'd come up with the perfect kind of response in the moment, but more often than not, I wouldn't.
[00:23:33] And I felt like at different stages, the perfect response in the moment justified all the other times when I didn't do such a good job. When I could actually improve my ability to respond consistently. If I had done a little bit of rehearsal myself when things weren't stressful, when I didn't teaching, when I'm explaining to friends and family what it's like, teaching is one of the most physiological things.
[00:23:54] You get into that class and it's not, you feel like it's not going well, you're like. I can, I can feel my neck going around. [00:24:00] Yeah. Hot. Yeah. It's a really physiological response in stressful conditions in a classroom, and we don't do our best thinking. And so to front load, to plan, to think about where things are going really well and building across, I think that's a, a really nice way.
[00:24:15] I, I would be really reluctant to be, um, going into a classroom and just saying, there's nothing in here. There's no practice. Um, so building on. Yeah,
[00:24:24] Karina Stocker: I think I talk from a leadership position at a school and just like our students, our children who are learners, our teachers need to be supported and they need the right conditions to be able to be successful.
[00:24:37] So we talked about systems at the beginning. Yep. And I think it really is a system that supports teachers. So teachers doing it alone is not Okay. Teachers doing it within a supportive school system is what we want for teachers. So when we talk about these practices, they really need to be supported by the system.
[00:24:55] And what I mean by that is we need, um, instructional coaches, we need [00:25:00] leadership that are supportive in helping teachers build momentum in their classroom for some of these practices through providing the right professional learning and coaching through providing the right documentation. We do video modeling for our teachers.
[00:25:13] We use our teachers, um, to do that. We annotate them. We, um, have teachers watching other teachers. We build a culture of coaching and success and talking about all of these practices. It becomes embedded and ingrained in the school. We have teachers sharing at our weekly professional learning little video snapshots of how they did certain practices and what they would do better or what is going well.
[00:25:39] And I think it has to be a slow and steady pace that we bring in some of these evidence-based practices. Um, when we talk about four or five to one ratio of praised correction, that doesn't just happen. 'cause you want it to happen. Get a buddy to come and count for you. And if you're at. One to one, then try to get to two to one.
[00:25:58] Yeah. Okay. And [00:26:00] notice the differences. Remain curious about what's happening in your classroom and see the response of students. So I, I agree with Russ. Start where you feel comfortable. Start in a class that you feel comfortable, but also it should be part of a system that supports you to do that.
[00:26:17] Rebecca Cooper: Would you do the same sort of things?
[00:26:19] And is the ratio, are the ratios the same whether you're in sort of early childhood, primary or secondary or something like that? Is, is it all the same?
[00:26:26] Karina Stocker: Oh, actually that research comes out of a marriage research and how the rate of praise, praise statements in a marriage and how successful that makes a marriage, and I think that is where the research began.
[00:26:38] Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So I actually think it is for all learners, regardless of age or context. Yeah. How successful we are. Yeah.
[00:26:46] Dr Russ Fox: And. One of my favorite studies. Okay. Such a nerdy thing to say, um, is actually done in a secondary context. Okay. And so, yeah, these practices do work, but we're not going to use the same language.
[00:26:57] You know, we're, we're not going to, we're not talking [00:27:00]down to the learners. We're talking at their level. And it's understanding too, how the dynamics of a classroom work in, in a secondary classroom. The peer pool, the peer attention, like in, in primary schools, the teacher has a sort of. Credibility and and status as the teacher that may or may not be there in secondary school.
[00:27:21] And so it's recognizing that there might be more effective ways, like public correction can often lead for opportunities for other engagement, shall we say. And so finding ways to provide feedback. Either positive or or corrective privately, quietly in a moment. And I think it, it has to be a pretty active game.
[00:27:41] Like I've got friends and colleagues, um, we've done work in schools. We're working in schools where I. There are lots of grade splits. Um, these are secondary schools where teachers are covering multiple classrooms. We've got people on permission to teach teaching in classrooms, and, you know, we, we don't want this to sound like it's all, you know, fairy floss and, and, and rainbows.
[00:27:59] It's hard [00:28:00] work and it, it's really, really complicated and, and it does come back to largely like what Karina was saying about the systems that support teachers to do this work consistently. But the practices themselves hold up really, really well. And that's, you know. Maybe do a bit of scripting. How would I, how would I say this to someone who's in year 11 who might be a little bit more on the disengaged style?
[00:28:21] When would I say it? Would I say it publicly? Would I say it? Quietly am I gonna ask my, my, my high school learners to line up? Um, I think it's a really strong argument for doing that, and it's being really clear about why, and I'm not doing this 'cause I wanna be bossy. You know, I've, I've, I've got my degree.
[00:28:36] I'm a teacher. Yeah. I'm here. I've, I've been through school. I'm, I'm, I'm back again. Um, we're not doing any of this for compliance and control. This is about supporting learners to engage in their learning. With their peers, um, so they can participate and belong as part of school. And all of these practices are really skill building things and that build the routines and habits of a classroom that enable people to [00:29:00] thrive.
[00:29:00] Rebecca Cooper: So how do students respond if this is a change in what's been happening previously in their classroom? What, what sort of happens.
[00:29:09] Karina Stocker: I really talk about this as what's called a multi-tiered system of support. Yeah, and the reason I talk about it as a multi-tiered system of support, and that's where I have my experience in, in implementation, is because it is.
[00:29:21] A multi-tiered system of support that looks at academics and behavior holistically in that each impact the other. And so when we are implementing some of these tier one practices, the, IT is a different way of learning for students. They're not passively sitting there for half for hour and not responding at all.
[00:29:39] They're responding all the time. They're giving a thumbs up, a thumbs down, they're coly responding, they're using whiteboards, they're actively engaged. We find, we find that the kids are actually quite excited. Well, I'm from a primary school, so kids love to share what they're doing with their teacher.
[00:29:54] They're looking for the teacher to provide them feedback. We have all students thinking, all students [00:30:00] responding. I think for teachers it can be a little bit hard to build up stamina of teaching in this way. Yeah, sure. Um, again, we start off maybe with doing it in phonics instruction to start with, or some spelling instruction, um, where we know we can get lots of practice opportunities in, and then we might build it to.
[00:30:16] Read alouds and text responses and things like that. But I think it's, it is, um, a bit of a stamina that has to be built. Um, if you walked into my school, you would be surprised. That feels like a game of tennis in our classrooms all the time. Everyone's constantly engaging and we have tours that come through and look at our school and.
[00:30:37] The number one thing they say is, wow, everyone must be tired at the end of the day. Yeah,
[00:30:43] Rebecca Cooper: yeah. If there is somebody out there who is listening and is recognizing they don't have that system within their school, but also recognizes that within their classroom they would like to make a bit of change, is there sort of one or two things you would recommend that they do or that they start with?
[00:30:59] [00:31:00] I think for a teacher,
[00:31:01] Karina Stocker: my number one thing would be to start with teaching instructional and daily routines in your classroom. So think about what you want your students to do or engage in, write the steps out to for them to be successful, what that looks like. And then we teach it explicitly, so we provide examples and non-examples.
[00:31:22] We might provide a role play, we might practice it. When we're not teaching content, so we're not having to worry about the cognitive load of all the other things that are happening in the classroom. It might be that you look at. You are using menu whiteboards in your classroom, which can be a point of contention for teachers because kids love to draw on the whiteboards or flip them or hold them over their heads and shake them around.
[00:31:45] So how do you want that routine to look in your classroom? What are the steps that the students should engage in? And now we need to teach it. We need to model it. We need to provide examples and non examples. We need to have the students respond, so opportunities to respond and we need to [00:32:00] provide feedback.
[00:32:01] And then we practice that over time and that's our first goal. And we work on that. We work on our instructional routine of whiteboards or entry routines or how to get our resources effectively, or which, how to ask to go to the toilet, whatever the routine is in your classroom that you choose. Start small, teach it explicitly, which means you have to provide lots of opportunities for practice and feedback.
[00:32:24] In the moment, they have to engage in that skill and then think for the next two weeks, that's going to be my focus and I'm gonna be providing high rates of reinforcement when I see kids engaging in those behaviors. And that creates that predictability and that safety in that routine. And your children in your classroom will respond and they'll be very excited about that.
[00:32:44] Then move to the next thing.
[00:32:46] Dr Russ Fox: And I think not being afraid to use, sort of like we, we worry a lot about extrinsic things and I think when we're starting something really new, that might be a fair shift from the, the culture or expectation. It's not being afraid to have [00:33:00] something that's fun or extrinsic or external to the learners.
[00:33:04] Like, uh, praise is external. So there are, there are things we do all the time that we provide external to the learner. It's just we don't want to get stuck there. We don't want to be dependent on the extrinsic. We, we do want to make that shift to how is this working for you? It's sort of teaching the feelings of success and we have to make sure that whatever we're doing actually is paying off for the learner, closing the loop for the learner, you know, are they actually more able to engage in the work?
[00:33:32] Are they feeling some sense of success? I. Or have we done a really good job of teaching a routine that now, like I was saying before, leaves me feeling like I can't do this and now I'm just exposed in a classroom and I have to respond in front of my peers. So how can we actually build things in that allow students to succeed or at least continue to develop towards success in a way that's really safe and that I think that's a great opportunity to bring in student voice.
[00:33:59] Hey, we're [00:34:00] gonna do this new thing and it's gonna feel really, it might feel a bit awkward for us for a little while. Let's pick something we care about and let's work towards something we care about as a community. Um, it may not be a token, and that's okay, but the token might be a way that we can mark something out to move towards something we care about.
[00:34:17] Like it might just be a, a, a, a little indicator of progress. So it's making sure that students are aware of what, what's going on, that they're a part of what's going on. As we do things like Karina said,
[00:34:28] Rebecca Cooper: I really like what you said before about the markers of success, both for the students but also for the teachers.
[00:34:34] Thank you both very, very much for a fantastic conversation. It seems to me that behavior isn't something to manage. It's something to teach. By creating clear expectations, reinforcing positive interactions, and embedding behavior into everyday routines. Teachers can set up students for success, and even if a whole school system isn't in place, [00:35:00] small, consistent changes in the classroom can make a lasting impact.
[00:35:04] Thanks so much. Thank
[00:35:05] Dr Russ Fox: you. Yeah, pleasure. Thank you.
[00:35:07] Rebecca Cooper: We've included a wealth of practical resources in our show notes that support your teaching journey. Be sure to check them out. If you're enjoying the show, don't forget to subscribe, rate and review, and follow us on Instagram at Monash Education X at Monash Education and Facebook at Education Monash.
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[00:35:46] Dot au slash education slash learn more. Thanks again for listening to Let's Talk Teaching.